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View Poll Results: What system would you prefer for overall points? (vote only if you Autoslalom!)

Voters
15. You may not vote on this poll
  • Street & Performance Classes w/ Raw Times

    10 66.67%
  • PAX Index

    5 33.33%
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Thread: PAX Index for Autoslalom

  1. #1
    Administrator test MarcGSR's Avatar
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    PAX Index for Autoslalom

    I'm looking for thoughts from members that participate in Autoslalom and if you'd like to see things stay how they are with Street and Performance tire classes and using raw times or instead switch to use the PAX Index for points?

    Nabs and I pulled times of some competitors in both our Street and Performance classes from the hospital Autoslalom Fundraiser (if you participated, feel free to calculate your own PAX and I'll add it to the list) and applied the PAX index to see how it would affect points. It's quite easy to figure out your class/PAX if you know the mods done to your vehicle.

    Street Results:
    Name Time
    Mike R. 42.246
    Shawn A. 42.526
    Marc S. 43.595
    Steve S. 43.596
    Kelly T. 43.610
    Cale T. 45.245

    Performance Results:
    Name Time
    Dan J. 41.062
    Eric R. 41.955
    Justin M. 42.403
    Curtis S. 42.775
    Dan T. 46.240
    Chelsea S. 50.225

    After applying PAX:
    Name Time Class PAX
    Justin M. 34.177 GS 0.806
    Mike R. 34.219 FS 0.810
    Shawn A. 34.361 ES 0.808
    Dan J. 35.436 BSP 0.863
    Eric R. 35.788 SMF 0.853
    Steve S. 36.010 BS 0.826
    Curtis S. 36.102 STU 0.844
    Marc S. 37.230 DSP 0.854
    Kelly T. 37.635 BSP 0.863
    Dan T. 38.425 STX 0.831
    Cale T. 39.363 SM 0.870
    Chelsea S. 40.883 CS 0.814

    ---------------------------------
    Some info on PAX:
    PAX could best be described as a relative index of performance in autocrossing, much the same way a handicap rating is given in the game of golf. PAX indexes are based on results from the SCCA National Championships (the best of the best) each September. How strongly a class performs compared to the thirty-something other classes represented helps determine PAX indexes the next year. Basically, the index is a multiplier, designed to compensate for the differences in car performance, thereby shifting the emphasis to driver ability. In plain English, (for example), it allows someone driving a Geo Metro in HS to compete fairly with someone driving a Dodge Viper in SS. The following is an example showing how PAX is used at events…

    The class “A Modified” is the fastest class in autocrossing; it is expected that the cars in this class represent the pinnacle of autocross-specific race car design, engineering, and performance. The class rarely disappoints! Due to its unbelievable performance the PAX index for this class is 1.000 (no handicap is given). This means that if an A Mod car runs a time of 50 seconds, it will show up on the final results as 50 seconds.

    Now let’s compare this to a car in “C Street Prepared”, which has a PAX index of .844. A car in CSP runs a time of 62 seconds on the same course as the A Mod car, yet its time will appear as 52.328 on the final standings. This was done by multiplying the raw time by the PAX index. As a result, the CSP car finishes only 2.328 seconds (not 12 seconds) behind the A Mod car. Yes, it still lost based on raw speed alone, but it allowed the driver in the CSP car to finish much higher overall. Thus, most regions base their overall driver championship on PAX performance whereas class championships are based on raw times.

    Links to determine car class & PAX:
    http://www.scca.com/solo/content.cfm?cid=44517
    http://home.comcast.net/~paxrtp/rtp2015.html

  2. #2
    Premium Member test Nabs's Avatar
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    PAX Index for Autoslalom

    A little FYI, the classes that we came up with for each car was an approximate guess as we didn't know the exact mods each car had.

    I've already told Marc this but I'll say it here too. I don't believe it's a good idea to use the pax index as the lots we use are quite small and the runs are so short that it would unfavourably be bias to smaller, stock cars and those with any sort of modification will be at a great disadvantage.

    It seems to be used by larger clubs on larger lots where the course is more flowing an faster and not just a bunch of really tight turns and a couple slaloms.

    Also there would have to be someone at each autoslalom to help people figure out which class they are in, if they haven't already, and it's not like we have an excess amount of volunteers as it is.
    Last edited by Nabs; 03-09-2015 at 04:01 PM.
    "Exhaust gases go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster"

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  3. #3
    Senior Member test D_Thissen's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    Love how my Prius tires are 'Performance' class tires. Stupid 200 treadwear

    2013 Argento FR-S

  4. #4
    Senior Member test Snidd's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    I really like the idea of all of us in one ranking with the PAX Index,but i do see Nabs' points also and agree with them too. It might be fun to try it for a season to see how it plays out? either way,ill be there to have some fun.

    2003-350Z
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  5. #5
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    My thoughts are that if anyone is considering competing out of town its the way that all other clubs run their events so you would know how you are classed and be familiar with the system, also its apples to apples for comparative purposes. I realize we haven't gotten too big yet but the numbers are growing and hopefully one day soon we can get a larger lot for our regular events. As it stands now at the end of the day you can only compare your finish with about half the field, those in your own class, this way you are able to see how you are in relation to all the other cars and drivers. Just my two cents, I'm going to be there thrashing my car regardless, cant wait for the season to start. Everyone be on the lookout for large parking lots that may be useable, dominions been great to us but it is time to upgrade.

  6. #6
    Administrator test MarcGSR's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    Let's keep it on topic, this thread is for discussing car classes and points. If anyone has an idea for a lot, PM me.

  7. #7
    Member test Nav's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    I'd be up for a PAX system. It's the most fair in terms of competition. The street tire/performance tire classing system does work, and I'm not THAT against it.... but like Cale said, his stock "prius" tires put him into a performance tire class, and IF his car was stock, that would be unfair!
    Last edited by Nav; 03-12-2015 at 05:29 PM.

  8. #8
    I'm a HATER! test MiniD1CK5's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    My car is in the street tire class
    FUNCTION >FORM

    Randy Probst's take on the BRZ "it's like a BMW and a Lotus had a baby"

    "Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." -Colin Chapman

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  9. #9
    Senior Member test D_Thissen's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    My car is in the Performance tire class.

    2013 Argento FR-S

  10. #10
    Premium Member test Nabs's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    I really want to vote but I can't since I don't believe either system is fair right now, especially for the lots we are are currently using. If there was a guarantee we could use a much bigger lot and more flowing courses then I'd definitely be up for using the pax index.

    Just an example as to why I'm currently against pax, especially for the dominion lot, is that someone with a stock car that ran 3 seconds slower than me would end up beating me by 1 second, yet the modification that puts me in such a bad category, the turbo, isn't even being used. I'd also have to run r-comps just to be competitive and I don't want to waste $1k on tires just for auto slalom. I've also heard complaints from others saying they wouldn't come out anymore if we used pax.

    I know, fuckin' wah, but I fully understand the other side of the argument and agree with it but just not for our current situation. It's also been brought to my attention that the reason for having this discussion in the first place is because while the current system works, there are a few people who are running equipment that gives them an advantage and the club does not want to single them out by saying they can't use it or by creating another class just for a select few.
    "Exhaust gases go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster"

    ///M3 Journal | E39 540i Journal | Turbo Install | Carbon Roof Time-Lapse Install

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  11. #11
    I'm a HATER! test MiniD1CK5's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    Who might those select people be........
    FUNCTION >FORM

    Randy Probst's take on the BRZ "it's like a BMW and a Lotus had a baby"

    "Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." -Colin Chapman

    "He who shall be last, shall be sideways and smiling"

  12. #12
    Senior Member test squarebit's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    I don't think PAX would work well with the lot we're in.

  13. #13
    Senior Member test Curtis_conway's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    The thought is good but it's actually a pretty poor system. We autocross'd at brainerd a couple years ago and what people do is build to fit in specific classes, here in t bay how many years would it take to make it work? Where people built there cars just for autoslolam....

    Hey you want to know what one of the hardest things to do in the ice racing world??? CLASSING CARS!!!!! Look at the last 2 years a B car has destroyed the A cars....is it fair? Some say yes because he fits in a class some say no cause he's beating cars in a higher class.

    What ya going to do?
    Ps when a new comer comes out do you think they'll be able to follow how they were classed? Tell someone about treadware is a bunch easier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://www.maperformance.com/proving.../2013-results/

    Kattty finished 28th...and then 95th lol
    Last edited by Curtis_conway; 03-14-2015 at 08:52 AM.

  14. #14
    Administrator test MarcGSR's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    You're right. Classing cars is always a tough game. As everyone can see, they use PAX at Proving Grounds for points.

    To clarify, the idea of running PAX has been brought up because it's what is used across the country when competing for national points. It's a proven system (maybe not ideal for small lots but still). Having said that and not to take away from the skill of any driver but it seems unfair to have cars running r-compound tires in the same class as those on performance summer tires. At present, a class can't exist for only two cars.

    I just want to see more people come out and have fun. PAX gives a larger pool of competition and if we can even out the playing field a little more then why not? Also, there are a few cheat sheets available (as well as a competition director or steward) to help new-comers figure out what class their car falls in - once you determine it's class the first time it doesn't change unless you start to pile on more mods.

    http://www.scca-milwaukee.org/solo/2...sification.pdf

  15. #15
    Senior Member test Curtis_conway's Avatar
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    Re: PAX Index for Autoslalom

    Picture this.....thunder bay's autoslolam consists of 15 miata's cause that's how it turns out across the country..... Heck buying miata's are probably cheaper than r comps anyways.


    I find the r comp talk to be irrelevant because the ones who complain aren't even close to the top of the performance tire class.

    I hate being the one that usually has the negative comments but I feel that I should share what I've taken in from going to these different racing deals.

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